RE: (long reply from Phil) RE: Manual control of LD10/11 was RE: Conventions...

["Keith Doxey" <ukha@xxxxxxx>]

Hi Phil,

I take your point about reverting the house back to normal, and in that
case, using the circuit I posted all you would need to do is remove
HomeVision. Once the system fail relays were released the buttons would be
directly controlling the LD10's (via a small relay) It would mean that all
the switches were low voltage rather than mains. If you were away and it
all
went pear shaped then Jo or Edward could regain control of the house by
turning off "The PANIC switch" in Node 0 to kill the beast that
had taken
control (or lost control) of the house.

You could leave the existing mains wiring in the box but disconnected at
both the switch end and the ceiling rose end. That way you could even
remove
the LD10's quite easily.

As to X10 being easily available, apart from a few dedicated suppliers,
there arent many places to buy them. True - they are growing in popularity
amongst the dedicated band of Automators here, but if someone launched a
system that was modular, low cost ( same or less than X10), had feedback,
replaced a standard switch and was as close to 100% reliable as it is
possible to make any piece of electronic kit - how many of use would add
any
more X10. Once the existing band of users changed to a newer more robust
system the existing X10 marked would die.

If that happened, the householder would still be required to change some
wiring.

Its a difficult choice that must be based on many factors, how long you are
going to live there, how much work you want to do to put the house back to
normal when/if you sell, what features you want, what features you can live
without to satisfy the first few factors.

At the end of the day, its your call but you know you can always get help
here.

Keith


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Harris [mailto:phillip.harris1@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: 12 August 2001 17:46
> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> Subject: (long reply from Phil) RE: Manual control of LD10/11 was RE:
> [ukha_d] Conventions...
>
>
>
> > Why not wire these buttons back to HomeVision Phil ?
>
> Simply because I don't want to be reliant upon HV for control ...
> being able
> to remove the stuff (HomeVision) from the equation and have the
> house return
> fairly much to normal is important to me.
>
> I can see your point and Keiths too and I must say that it would
> be nice to
> have a switch panel which had an on/off control that did just do
> on and off
> plus separate Brighten & Dim buttons. If it was possible to get
something
> like an LW10 wall switch (but one that that didn't look like a dogs
dinner
> after it has been eaten and vomited back up) that had separate buttons
for
> Dim/Bright but had no switching functionality and only broadcast the
X10
> commands onto the house wiring then I would certainly consider
> such a unit -
> especially since HV would then be able to track the light level -
however
> having the centralised and specialised control of core house
functionality
> that would come along with routing all commands and switching through
> HomeVision is unnaccaptable to me. Evaluate the risks and ditribute
then
> accordingly!
>
> If I have a rack of LD10/11s and Clipsal switches then say we
> sold the house
> I can either leave the lights on the LD10s as dimmers and know
> that the new
> owner will be able to source a new LD10 if anything goes wrong and any
> sparks capable of holding a screwdriver by teh right end will be able
to
> change them (they're not difficult to get hold of) or I can replace
the
> Clipsal switches with the original switches and remove the LD10s
> easily and
> have the lights revert back to simple on/off use as normal.
>
> Take for example the group project ... Now, I do not want any of the
guys
> working on this project to take this as any slur on their abilities
and I
> can see the attraction of what they are doing but to me this lighting
> control system is unnacceptably "risky" ... it's a closed
and proprietry
> system which will require the continued input of the developers
> to maintain.
> What happens in five or ten years time when a triac blows? At best we
will
> probably end up having to dismantle the unit, find the fault and
> replace the
> triac (or other component) ourselves (it's unlikely that in five
> years time
> any of the guys will have stocks of spare built PCB's ready and
waiting to
> send out for next day delivery) ... at worst we'll have sold the
> house with
> the lighting system integrated into it, the new owner will have tried
> replacing a bulb, got frustrated and had to call out an electrician.
The
> electrician will turn up and then tell the owner that he has no
> idea what's
> going on with this system as it's something he's never seen
> before, there's
> nothing he can do to fix it and all he can suggest is rewiring
> (as he'll not
> know whether the system is capable of being reverted to normal or
> not). Now,
> I have great respect for what the guys are doing on this project and
the
> hardware design and firmware logic will need - and show - a good level
of
> skills but surely far more usefull would have been a small PCB capable
of
> fitting into a single UK backbox that can send out ON/OFF/BIGHTEN/DIM
> commands for a single house and unit code upon the closing of a couple
of
> switch contacts? Then a couple of switches in Clipsal plates could be
used
> (or you could build up your own front panel) and you'd have a nice
looking
> and really functional wall light switch. (I know this is kinda covered
by
> the Leviton scene controllers but they're overkill for this task.)
>
> I was having this discussion with John Hill the other night about how
> embedded into the infrastructure of the house I wanted the home
control to
> go and for me I don't want it too deeply integrated. *ANY* piece
> of hardware
> increases the chance of failure in a system and even though HomeVision
is
> reliable it isn't perfect and can die/crash. If I'm not relying on
> HomeVision to supply the intelligence for the basic "hit the
switch on the
> wall" functionality then that's a good backup as far as I'm
concerned.
>
> For the curtains then the simple toggle is fine for a "beside the
door"
> control.
>
> Now ... where HomeVision does come in as far as I'm concerned is
*ADDING*
> functionality to this arrangement. To this "basic" hardware
only system I
> can then have Homevision adding a lot of extras.
>
> The K400 motors for the Swish rails have three control lines - force
open,
> force closed and toggle state. Wiring the "toggle state"
line to the wall
> switch and the force open/force closed lines back to HomeVision
> allows local
> control of the curtains within the bedroom as well as allowing
> HomeVision to
> make the place look lived in when we're out or have remote control of
the
> curtains from a Pronto (where, if you do want to control the curtains
in
> another part of the house, I would usually want to force them
> open or closed
> not toggle their state).
>
> It also can control the LD10s directly so that I can say have a single
> command to HomeVision which effectively says "We're going out ...
you make
> the place look lived in" and then HomeVision can do its stuff and
have
> curtains closing *BEFORE* putting lights on, turning lights off at
> appropriate times and in appropriate orders, opening curtains in
> the morning
> etc. I see nothing as silly as using timeswitches or timers to
> switch lights
> on and off when leaving curtains permanently open or closed -
> obvious advert
> that a house is unnattended!
>
> The *ONLY* room in the house where I will have more than one lighting
> circuit is in the AV Room when I do it. In that room I am
> prepared to let HV
> have more of an active role because that will be *MY* room - if
something
> doesn't work then it's not too much of an issue. The rest of the house
has
> to be able to be "run" by Jo or Edward and if I'm out for a
couple of days
> (as I often am) then Jo is not going to stand waiting for me to return
to
> sort out a bug in a HomeVision schedule. (And she shouldn't be
> expected to.)
> What happens if - say - HomeVision has a problem which causes Edwards
> bedroom light not to work, Edward gets up in the night and wants
> to turn the
> light on, it doesn't work. He's going to panic and then get
> himself wound up
> and scared and end up in tears ... five year olds don't listen to
> you saying
> that someone has accidentally unplugged the TW7223 or there's a
> bug in your
> schedule let alone wait for you to correct it. If something that used
to
> work suddenly doesn't then it is a big issue ... anyone who has
> kids surely
> must understand that?
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> For more information: http://www.automatedhome.co.uk
> Post message: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> Subscribe:  ukha_d-subscribe@xxxxxxx
> Unsubscribe:  ukha_d-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx
> List owner:  ukha_d-owner@xxxxxxx
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


For more information: http://www.automatedhome.co.uk
Post message: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
Subscribe:  ukha_d-subscribe@xxxxxxx
Unsubscribe:  ukha_d-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx
List owner:  ukha_d-owner@xxxxxxx

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/