RE: Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in London?

["Broadfoot, Kieran J" <Kieran.Broadfoot@xxxxxxx>]

Mick,

Do your fibre channel discs have the housing as well?  The cost of a JNI
fibre card is in the region of 600 plus then of course you need the
cabling.
Also I think you might have an issue with pure sun stock running on PC pci.
Its to do with the bios which is often different on the cards, a special
raptor graphics card which uses a standard rage pro chipset costs 300 plus.

Flog them on ebay and buy a nice pair of 36gb wide scsi 2 disks then run
them off a nice little pc scsi controller.  Still more than enough
performance compared to your average ide.

kieran "dont know much about pc's" broadfoot

-----Original Message-----
From: Mick Furlong [mailto:dorsai@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 1:23 PM
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in London?


Yup I thought it would be java nice and portable ;)

well my favourite heinlen book is Time Enough for Love but I like a lot of
his stuff.

hmmmm interesting do you know if any of the sparc boards are PC
compatible(PCI)? reason is I have a couple of 9gb sun fibre channel discs
and I would love to run them off my PC they should scream;)problem is I
cant
find a damn fibrechannel PCI card. Might just flog the things.

Mick

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Broadfoot, Kieran J [mailto:Kieran.Broadfoot@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: 24 June 2001 11:06
> To: 'ukha_d@xxxxxxx'
> Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in London?
>
>
> Ill dig the code link out at work tommorrow for you.  It doesnt
> need to just
> run on a TINI as it uses java/commapi so you could run it on most
> platforms.
>
>
> I got to say Heinlein is a great writer.  Still think his best piece
was
> friday but only because its so descriptive and not quite so
> caught up in he
> details as some of his other books.
>
> sparc 20, cost of those new was about 15k without any added bits
> and pieces.
> I just decommissioned our old trading floor of sun kit moving to a new
> building and given it was such a large project my boss let me have one
of
> the old boxes.  I found some spares and ended up with a fairly high
spac
> box.  four ross hyper sparc chips and 512mb, and a mirrored pair of
18gb
> drives.  It runs hot ;-)
>
> Sun kit like high end HA systems is expensive.  A good desktop
> will cost you
> just shy of 10k and most servers (420R upwards) are about 40-45k.  If
you
> wanted a fully loaded e4500 your average Sun dealership would
> probably want
> about 250k upwards (without any kind of disk chassis!)
>
> Its expensive but it dont stop working ;-)
>
> k
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mick Furlong [mailto:dorsai@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 10:57 AM
> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in London?
>
>
> Kieran
>
> I would be interested in the code you have found for TINI/CM12 do
> you have a
> link?
>
> Yup it was in the Moon is a Harsh Mistress and he also used the
> concept in a
> lot of his other books (The self aware computer was called Mycroft
brother
> of Sherlock Holmes if I recall correctly;).
>
> A sparc 20 to run your house!!!!...I remember when a Sparc system
> would cost
> more than most houses! I guess thay have come down a bit in price or
you
> have a good source.
>
> Mick
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Broadfoot, Kieran J [mailto:Kieran.Broadfoot@xxxxxxx]
> > Sent: 24 June 2001 10:34
> > To: 'ukha_d@xxxxxxx'
> > Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in
London?
> >
> >
> > agreed.. very similar to how I was thinking about running my
> > system.  I work
> > with highly available systems and was looking at implementing
something
> > similar in hardware.  Full functionality from a pc with a
> database etc but
> > all management controlled by a TINI (I found the code a couple
> of days to
> > control a cm12u from a TINI) but I would prefer to have a pair
> of them (or
> > maybe more) all in sync around the house.  A loss of any
> individual board
> > (blown fuse, hard hang etc) would allow others to carry on.
> > Tspaces (as per
> > Johns email a while back) or JINI/JIRO would provide me with that
> > functionality.
> >
> > Tandem:  Not sure if they are still going but very cool hardware
> > designs.  I
> > know a lot of telecoms companies used to use them for control
> > systems given
> > their high availability.  I had a job managing a couple which
lasted 4
> > weeks.  They offered me a job as a sun system admin and then gave
me a
> > tandem.  I spent two weeks working out how to compile vi then
> > realised they
> > are terrible from a management perspective ;-)
> >
> > Heinlein:  Wasnt it the moon is a harsh mistress?
> >
> > k.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mick Furlong [mailto:dorsai@xxxxxxx]
> > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 3:11 AM
> > To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> > Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in
London?
> >
> >
> > I agree as well, if you want non stop computing then you need to
look at
> > something designed for it like Tandem systems were (are they
> still going?)
> > There are other similar options some of them even based on MSoft
> > but all of
> > them cost big! Anyone familiar with the tell me three times
> > concept that was
> > used in some SF novels (Heinlen I think)?
> >
> > I think that any HA system needs to include graceful
> degradation by that I
> > mean ....PC running you have top fuctionality including thought
> control (
> > only kidding but maybe voice control)plus lots of automation as
> in Kierans
> > concepts, PC dies you roll over to a local controller like a
> TINI/Rabbit,
> > still lots of integration possible but you lose the higher level
> > functions,
> > the cupboard you put both the TINI  and the PC in ends up under
> > two feet of
> > water (hmm is it Paul that has some of his gear in a cellar? ;)
then you
> > fall over to local control on direct switches or local pic
> driven devices.
> >
> > As well as degrading gracefully any system has to have
> failsafes in place,
> > examples are ...don't let the heating warm the house up to 40
> > degrees C (and
> > similarly don't let temps drop enough to freeze pipes),
electrical door
> > locks should fail to locked BUT should have manual inside opening
> > and if you
> > want a failsafe for not P***ing off swmbo then don't allow
> > anything to flash
> > the living room lights every 5 secs (I did this recently and she
wasn't
> > happy  ;)
> >
> > Just my thoughts
> >
> > Mick
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Kenneth Watt [mailto:kennethwatt@xxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: 22 June 2001 18:50
> > > To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> > > Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night
in London?
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree with John, I would not trust a PC to run the house,
although I
> > > do trust HV as it is mot MS based :-> hell, even Linux
topples over
> > > occasionally so getting everything PC based for me is not an
option at
> > > the moment.
> > >
> > > K.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Dr John Tankard [mailto:john@xxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: 22 June 2001 17:42
> > > To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in
London?
> > >
> > > > ideas:
> > > >
> > > > i. second ukha product - 1 and 2 gang wall switches
controlled by
> > > xap.
> > > > Standard wall sockets providing the same functionality
as x10 just
> > > over
> > > > tcp/ip and with state
> > >
> > > We had talked about this one before, its a idea I like but
the
> > > general feeling was, its overkill and it would be to
expensive.
> > >
> > > I like the wall switch which would do more ie lcd/kbd
module.
> > >
> > > There is another problem with the wall switch. The lighting
project
> > > is going to handle two/three forms of local control:-
> > > 1) standard low voltage switch closures which could come
from either
> > > CAT5 or 1.5mm t&e home run, this would allow the users
with DIN
> > > modules to conver over to the new system and allow users to
switch
> > > back to almoust normal wiring if the move home (Not done but
very
> > > easy)
> > > 2) multi drop serial comms over cat5 (Done using SNAP at the
moment)
> > > 3) 1 wire interface to the PIC (Not sure about this no code
written)
> > > Now in your example although you would not have TCP/IP at
the wall
> > > switch, you would have it at the lighting controler, so
there is no
> > > problem in the lighting controler passing the TCP/IP message
out from
> > > the wall switches.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > ii. Maybe the project doesnt need a full software
control system
> > > but rather
> > > > a software API written in various languages.  Maybe the
HA masses
> > > would
> > > > prefer a COM object they can embed into their VB?  Or
the perl
> > > geeks can
> > > > have a perl module, or those java heads can get their
hands on a
> > > jar file.
> > > > Whatever way we produce it the important thing is that
it keeps
> > > some of the
> > > > complex stuff hidden with a nice little API for people.
 They could
> > > wrap
> > > > objects and other groovy data objects round it if they
want to build
> > > > relationships between devices but alternatively they
could
> > > something as
> > > > simple as:
> > > >
> > > > import net.sf.ukha.xap.*;
> > > >
> > > > Xap x = new Xap();
> > > >
> > > > public void main() {
> > > >    Array a = new Array();
> > > >    x.scanNet(a);
> > > >    x.turnOnDevice(a[4]);
> > > > }
> > > >
> > > > // you get the idea ....
> > > >
> > >
> > > I think we must also allow interface to other hardware
controlers,
> > > HV, Comfort. The reason I say this is you have to get people
to trust
> > > a PC, not easy (had to reset my W2K yesterday) I have never
had a
> > > problem with HV. Actualy I have just reset a Novell 5 server
today
> > > (uptime 602 days). The point I am making is its a bit of a
leap of
> > > faith to trust your house to a PC. I like the idea of the
level of
> > > control we can accheive with it but the house must not crash
if the
> > > PC's hard disk packs up. I know we could have two PC's but I
dont
> > > think we would sell the idea.
> > >
> > > > iii. We also talked about sponsorship for the ukha
project from
> > > letsautomate
> > > > or laser etc to help cover up front costs for CE
compliance etc.
> > > In return
> > > > they get guaranteed stock and the honour of being the
only
> > > stockists for x
> > > > number of months or x amount of stock etc.
> > > >
> > >
> > > It sounds nice, but its a risk for them, I think we need to
make
> > > something first so they can see it might happen first.
> > >
> > >
> > > > I think there are two major issues with nearly all HA
systems
> > > currently:
> > > >
> > > > a. There is virtually no easy way to integrate the
components in a
> > > > controlled fashion (thats what makes the expensive
systems a good
> > > deal if
> > > > you could afford them)
> > >
> > > I fully agree with this, but what is the answer, we could
make a
> > > complete system, but there is a lot of work in this.
> > >
> > > We could look at the main systems and try and intergrate
them into
> > > our devices.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > b. Most people implement HA by controlling devices and
then adding
> > > sensing
> > > > capabilities
> > > >
> > > > Im in the very early stages of implementing my own home
brew system
> > > but Ive
> > > > been thinking about it for quite some time and the idea
of an
> > > intelligent
> > > > house must indicate you start with setting up the house
to be aware
> > > of its
> > > > surroundings.  I am basing this stuff on
1-wire/ibuttons and TINI
> > > as my
> > > > chosen platform because it all supports java ;-)
> > > >
> > > > Each room has a number of sensor modules.  A module
would be made
> > > up of a
> > > > small breaboard containing a 64kbit iButton plus n+1
1-wire sensors
> > > (light,
> > > > humidity, temp etc).  Using the xml 1-wire project (on
sourceforge)
> > > you can
> > > > define relationships between 1-wire devices.  The idea
is that each
> > > sensor
> > > > has its own local data storage on the nvram.  This is
then farmed
> > > off
> > > > through an object model into a database for historical
use.  The
> > > great thing
> > > > is that even if you lose the database you can still
boot strap the
> > > house
> > > > using the few hours worth of data on the nvram buttons.
> > > >
> > > > Historical mapping of data provides trend analysis of
the house
> > > status which
> > > > can then be used with a bit of logic to define outcomes
when
> > > situations
> > > > occur.  I wanted to be able to dim lights in a room to
different
> > > levels
> > > > depending on light levels in different parts of the
room so you get
> > > a
> > > > uniform light level across the room.
> > >
> > > All sounds good, it reminds me of LonWorks which I wanted to
use but
> > > the development stuff was way over budget.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ____________________________________
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> > > http://www.automatedhome.co.uk
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____________________________________
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____________________________________
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