RE: Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in London?

["Broadfoot, Kieran J" <Kieran.Broadfoot@xxxxxxx>]

Yeah they are sun scsi 2 7200rpm disks.  We dont use sun disk chassis' much
so I could guess they came out of the precursor of the d1000 chassis.  The
problem with Sun drives is two fold: i. the bios is slightly different
being
sun specific (not always a problem) and ii. the connector at the back isnt
standard scsi handling power and scsi in one connect.  You would need to
sell them in the unix section of ebay but I am not sure how much youd get
for them.  Id try 50 or so each but you might get a lot more given how much
they would have cost at list price (probably around the 400-500 quid mark).

hope this helps

kieran

-----Original Message-----
From: Mick Furlong [mailto:dorsai@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 3:27 PM
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in London?


Kieran

these are unused hot swap drives I think...they are seagate cheetahs with a
vented metal plate on the bottom and a plastic/metall sort of holder with
the sun logo and a metal plate on the front which flics out when you push a
plastic thumbswitch type thing.

model number is ST39102fc.

If I were to flog em on ebay how much should I be looking for ?(I have a
pair of them)

Point taken about scsi I use it extensively already :)

Thanks
Mick


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Broadfoot, Kieran J [mailto:Kieran.Broadfoot@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: 24 June 2001 15:18
> To: 'ukha_d@xxxxxxx'
> Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in London?
>
>
> Mick,
>
> Do your fibre channel discs have the housing as well?  The cost of a
JNI
> fibre card is in the region of 600 plus then of course you need
> the cabling.
> Also I think you might have an issue with pure sun stock running
> on PC pci.
> Its to do with the bios which is often different on the cards, a
special
> raptor graphics card which uses a standard rage pro chipset costs
> 300 plus.
>
> Flog them on ebay and buy a nice pair of 36gb wide scsi 2 disks then
run
> them off a nice little pc scsi controller.  Still more than enough
> performance compared to your average ide.
>
> kieran "dont know much about pc's" broadfoot
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mick Furlong [mailto:dorsai@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 1:23 PM
> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in London?
>
>
> Yup I thought it would be java nice and portable ;)
>
> well my favourite heinlen book is Time Enough for Love but I like a
lot of
> his stuff.
>
> hmmmm interesting do you know if any of the sparc boards are PC
> compatible(PCI)? reason is I have a couple of 9gb sun fibre channel
discs
> and I would love to run them off my PC they should
> scream;)problem is I cant
> find a damn fibrechannel PCI card. Might just flog the things.
>
> Mick
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Broadfoot, Kieran J [mailto:Kieran.Broadfoot@xxxxxxx]
> > Sent: 24 June 2001 11:06
> > To: 'ukha_d@xxxxxxx'
> > Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in
London?
> >
> >
> > Ill dig the code link out at work tommorrow for you.  It doesnt
> > need to just
> > run on a TINI as it uses java/commapi so you could run it on most
> > platforms.
> >
> >
> > I got to say Heinlein is a great writer.  Still think his best
piece was
> > friday but only because its so descriptive and not quite so
> > caught up in he
> > details as some of his other books.
> >
> > sparc 20, cost of those new was about 15k without any added bits
> > and pieces.
> > I just decommissioned our old trading floor of sun kit moving to
a new
> > building and given it was such a large project my boss let me
> have one of
> > the old boxes.  I found some spares and ended up with a fairly
high spac
> > box.  four ross hyper sparc chips and 512mb, and a mirrored pair
of 18gb
> > drives.  It runs hot ;-)
> >
> > Sun kit like high end HA systems is expensive.  A good desktop
> > will cost you
> > just shy of 10k and most servers (420R upwards) are about
> 40-45k.  If you
> > wanted a fully loaded e4500 your average Sun dealership would
> > probably want
> > about 250k upwards (without any kind of disk chassis!)
> >
> > Its expensive but it dont stop working ;-)
> >
> > k
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mick Furlong [mailto:dorsai@xxxxxxx]
> > Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 10:57 AM
> > To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> > Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night in
London?
> >
> >
> > Kieran
> >
> > I would be interested in the code you have found for TINI/CM12 do
> > you have a
> > link?
> >
> > Yup it was in the Moon is a Harsh Mistress and he also used the
> > concept in a
> > lot of his other books (The self aware computer was called
> Mycroft brother
> > of Sherlock Holmes if I recall correctly;).
> >
> > A sparc 20 to run your house!!!!...I remember when a Sparc system
> > would cost
> > more than most houses! I guess thay have come down a bit in price
or you
> > have a good source.
> >
> > Mick
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Broadfoot, Kieran J [mailto:Kieran.Broadfoot@xxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: 24 June 2001 10:34
> > > To: 'ukha_d@xxxxxxx'
> > > Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night
in London?
> > >
> > >
> > > agreed.. very similar to how I was thinking about running my
> > > system.  I work
> > > with highly available systems and was looking at
implementing
> something
> > > similar in hardware.  Full functionality from a pc with a
> > database etc but
> > > all management controlled by a TINI (I found the code a
couple
> > of days to
> > > control a cm12u from a TINI) but I would prefer to have a
pair
> > of them (or
> > > maybe more) all in sync around the house.  A loss of any
> > individual board
> > > (blown fuse, hard hang etc) would allow others to carry on.
> > > Tspaces (as per
> > > Johns email a while back) or JINI/JIRO would provide me with
that
> > > functionality.
> > >
> > > Tandem:  Not sure if they are still going but very cool
hardware
> > > designs.  I
> > > know a lot of telecoms companies used to use them for
control
> > > systems given
> > > their high availability.  I had a job managing a couple
which lasted 4
> > > weeks.  They offered me a job as a sun system admin and then
gave me a
> > > tandem.  I spent two weeks working out how to compile vi
then
> > > realised they
> > > are terrible from a management perspective ;-)
> > >
> > > Heinlein:  Wasnt it the moon is a harsh mistress?
> > >
> > > k.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Mick Furlong [mailto:dorsai@xxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 3:11 AM
> > > To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> > > Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night
in London?
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree as well, if you want non stop computing then you
need
> to look at
> > > something designed for it like Tandem systems were (are they
> > still going?)
> > > There are other similar options some of them even based on
MSoft
> > > but all of
> > > them cost big! Anyone familiar with the tell me three times
> > > concept that was
> > > used in some SF novels (Heinlen I think)?
> > >
> > > I think that any HA system needs to include graceful
> > degradation by that I
> > > mean ....PC running you have top fuctionality including
thought
> > control (
> > > only kidding but maybe voice control)plus lots of automation
as
> > in Kierans
> > > concepts, PC dies you roll over to a local controller like a
> > TINI/Rabbit,
> > > still lots of integration possible but you lose the higher
level
> > > functions,
> > > the cupboard you put both the TINI  and the PC in ends up
under
> > > two feet of
> > > water (hmm is it Paul that has some of his gear in a cellar?
> ;) then you
> > > fall over to local control on direct switches or local pic
> > driven devices.
> > >
> > > As well as degrading gracefully any system has to have
> > failsafes in place,
> > > examples are ...don't let the heating warm the house up to
40
> > > degrees C (and
> > > similarly don't let temps drop enough to freeze pipes),
> electrical door
> > > locks should fail to locked BUT should have manual inside
opening
> > > and if you
> > > want a failsafe for not P***ing off swmbo then don't allow
> > > anything to flash
> > > the living room lights every 5 secs (I did this recently and
> she wasn't
> > > happy  ;)
> > >
> > > Just my thoughts
> > >
> > > Mick
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Kenneth Watt [mailto:kennethwatt@xxxxxxx]
> > > > Sent: 22 June 2001 18:50
> > > > To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> > > > Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last
Night
> in London?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I agree with John, I would not trust a PC to run the
house,
> although I
> > > > do trust HV as it is mot MS based :-> hell, even
Linux topples over
> > > > occasionally so getting everything PC based for me is
not
> an option at
> > > > the moment.
> > > >
> > > > K.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Dr John Tankard [mailto:john@xxxxxxx]
> > > > Sent: 22 June 2001 17:42
> > > > To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> > > > Subject: [ukha_d] Re: Kieran's comments was Last Night
in London?
> > > >
> > > > > ideas:
> > > > >
> > > > > i. second ukha product - 1 and 2 gang wall
switches controlled by
> > > > xap.
> > > > > Standard wall sockets providing the same
functionality as x10 just
> > > > over
> > > > > tcp/ip and with state
> > > >
> > > > We had talked about this one before, its a idea I like
but the
> > > > general feeling was, its overkill and it would be to
expensive.
> > > >
> > > > I like the wall switch which would do more ie lcd/kbd
module.
> > > >
> > > > There is another problem with the wall switch. The
lighting project
> > > > is going to handle two/three forms of local control:-
> > > > 1) standard low voltage switch closures which could
come from either
> > > > CAT5 or 1.5mm t&e home run, this would allow the
users with DIN
> > > > modules to conver over to the new system and allow
users to switch
> > > > back to almoust normal wiring if the move home (Not
done but very
> > > > easy)
> > > > 2) multi drop serial comms over cat5 (Done using SNAP
at the moment)
> > > > 3) 1 wire interface to the PIC (Not sure about this no
code written)
> > > > Now in your example although you would not have TCP/IP
at the wall
> > > > switch, you would have it at the lighting controler, so
there is no
> > > > problem in the lighting controler passing the TCP/IP
> message out from
> > > > the wall switches.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ii. Maybe the project doesnt need a full software
control system
> > > > but rather
> > > > > a software API written in various languages. 
Maybe the HA masses
> > > > would
> > > > > prefer a COM object they can embed into their VB? 
Or the perl
> > > > geeks can
> > > > > have a perl module, or those java heads can get
their hands on a
> > > > jar file.
> > > > > Whatever way we produce it the important thing is
that it keeps
> > > > some of the
> > > > > complex stuff hidden with a nice little API for
people.
> They could
> > > > wrap
> > > > > objects and other groovy data objects round it if
they
> want to build
> > > > > relationships between devices but alternatively
they could
> > > > something as
> > > > > simple as:
> > > > >
> > > > > import net.sf.ukha.xap.*;
> > > > >
> > > > > Xap x = new Xap();
> > > > >
> > > > > public void main() {
> > > > >    Array a = new Array();
> > > > >    x.scanNet(a);
> > > > >    x.turnOnDevice(a[4]);
> > > > > }
> > > > >
> > > > > // you get the idea ....
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think we must also allow interface to other hardware
controlers,
> > > > HV, Comfort. The reason I say this is you have to get
> people to trust
> > > > a PC, not easy (had to reset my W2K yesterday) I have
never had a
> > > > problem with HV. Actualy I have just reset a Novell 5
server today
> > > > (uptime 602 days). The point I am making is its a bit
of a leap of
> > > > faith to trust your house to a PC. I like the idea of
the level of
> > > > control we can accheive with it but the house must not
crash if the
> > > > PC's hard disk packs up. I know we could have two PC's
but I dont
> > > > think we would sell the idea.
> > > >
> > > > > iii. We also talked about sponsorship for the ukha
project from
> > > > letsautomate
> > > > > or laser etc to help cover up front costs for CE
compliance etc.
> > > > In return
> > > > > they get guaranteed stock and the honour of being
the only
> > > > stockists for x
> > > > > number of months or x amount of stock etc.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > It sounds nice, but its a risk for them, I think we
need to make
> > > > something first so they can see it might happen first.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I think there are two major issues with nearly all
HA systems
> > > > currently:
> > > > >
> > > > > a. There is virtually no easy way to integrate the
components in a
> > > > > controlled fashion (thats what makes the expensive
systems a good
> > > > deal if
> > > > > you could afford them)
> > > >
> > > > I fully agree with this, but what is the answer, we
could make a
> > > > complete system, but there is a lot of work in this.
> > > >
> > > > We could look at the main systems and try and
intergrate them into
> > > > our devices.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > b. Most people implement HA by controlling devices
and then adding
> > > > sensing
> > > > > capabilities
> > > > >
> > > > > Im in the very early stages of implementing my own
home
> brew system
> > > > but Ive
> > > > > been thinking about it for quite some time and the
idea of an
> > > > intelligent
> > > > > house must indicate you start with setting up the
house
> to be aware
> > > > of its
> > > > > surroundings.  I am basing this stuff on
1-wire/ibuttons and TINI
> > > > as my
> > > > > chosen platform because it all supports java ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Each room has a number of sensor modules.  A
module would be made
> > > > up of a
> > > > > small breaboard containing a 64kbit iButton plus
n+1
> 1-wire sensors
> > > > (light,
> > > > > humidity, temp etc).  Using the xml 1-wire project
(on
> sourceforge)
> > > > you can
> > > > > define relationships between 1-wire devices.  The
idea is
> that each
> > > > sensor
> > > > > has its own local data storage on the nvram.  This
is then farmed
> > > > off
> > > > > through an object model into a database for
historical use.  The
> > > > great thing
> > > > > is that even if you lose the database you can
still boot strap the
> > > > house
> > > > > using the few hours worth of data on the nvram
buttons.
> > > > >
> > > > > Historical mapping of data provides trend analysis
of the house
> > > > status which
> > > > > can then be used with a bit of logic to define
outcomes when
> > > > situations
> > > > > occur.  I wanted to be able to dim lights in a
room to different
> > > > levels
> > > > > depending on light levels in different parts of
the room
> so you get
> > > > a
> > > > > uniform light level across the room.
> > > >
> > > > All sounds good, it reminds me of LonWorks which I
wanted to use but
> > > > the development stuff was way over budget.
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ____________________________________
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> > > > http://www.automatedhome.co.uk
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____________________________________
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