RE: Re: placing microphones...

["Nikola Kasic" <nikola@xxxxxxx>]

Paul,

You didn't give me any feedback on placing the microphones. I need to know where to place them so I can put the cables at this point, at least.

Cheers,

Nik

-----Original Message-----
From: psghome2002 [mailto:psghome@xxxxxxx]
Sent: 15 July 2002 17:41
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxxSubject: [ukha_d] Re: placing microphones...

I wouldn't dissagree with this - a close mic'd system will always
work better. BUT it's very cool when the 'open air' technology does
work. It does need to be relatively quiet and the 'guest's kids'
point Amar makes is a good one! The guys at HAL recommend a local
attention-getting switch i.e. a switch that will turn on and hold
open the correct zone mic until you're finished. I plan to do this
with the Shure mixer - A HV output to the logic port on the mixer
will easily do this.

--- In ukha_d@y..., "Amar Nagi" <amar@a...> wrote:
> Nikola,
> 
> Can i just add something to this discussion.
> I too looked at a microphone solution to VR home automation, and
after alot of
> research i decided not to. I went for a cordless phone solution
instead.
> It is just not reliable enough. One major point i hated was if you
have guests
> round with kids they too can start speaking commands.
> I saw a few future homes and each one opted for the phone or
headset solution.
> Check out the orange.co.uk future home project.
> 
> It can be really embrassing siting with guests trying to give
commands
> to your node0 and getting no response, whereas the phone solution
> works i would say 95% of the time if not more.
> 
> Food for thought..........
> 
>
>       -----Original Message-----
>       From: Nikola Kasic [mailto:nikola@k...]
>       Sent: Mon 15/07/2002 16:57
>       To: ukha_d@y...
>       Cc:
>       Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: placing microphones...
>      
>      
>       Paul,
>       I am sitting in a sofa opposite the TV and I am faced
towards TV. Where should I mount my mic? If I mount mic on a wall
behind me it will be closer to me then to the TV but it will be
behind my back. If I place it behind TV, I'll be faced towards mic,
but TV will be closer. So, which way to go?
>       My original plan is neither. I planned to put it above the
doors of the lounge, so it would be at on the side, almost equally
distanced from me and TV (slightly closer to TV). But distance
between me and mic and TV and mic will be about 4-5m, while distance
between me and TV is about 3.5m.
>       Is that O.K?
>       I am reading all the theory, but I'm not smarter. All the
documents are for the environment when you know where speaker is
standing, so you use different kinds of mics to enhance reception
from speaker and attenuate the noise. Hence kardioid etc. mics.
>       However, in a flat I'll be moving and for moving speakers
they recommend using wireless mics which you wear, but you don't
want those either. So there's no proper solution. I'll asume that
I'll be in a sofa and try to adjust everything for that scenario.
All the rest is in god's hands.
>       Where did you buy your microphones from?
>      
>       I just ordered mic cable. It would cost me about 44 quid,
because delivery is £8.
>       Spoke to Mark from West London Elec as you recommended.
>       They don't have web site yet (will in a month, he said) and
their address is 9-11Acton High Road if anyone is interested.
>      
>       You said that you did a lot of research before diving into
this. What makes you think that recognition is not good because of
software and not because of hardware or microphone placement?
>       Did you ever consider placing wireless microphones, instead
of wired ones, so you can place more of them, at more appropriate
places?
>       Regarding noise cancellation, did you consider having one
mic very close to TV speaker and use that signal for cancellation.
Maybe having wireless one and place it on top, or inside the TV
speaker, or inside TV?
>      
>       Nik
>
>             -----Original Message-----
>             From: psghome2002 [mailto:psghome@h...]
>             Sent: 15 July 2002 13:21
>             To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx>             Subject: [ukha_d] Re: placing microphones...
>            
>            
>             I'm emailing several people with the same info at
the moment - maybe
>             I should put it all down on a web page (if I ever
get the time!).
>             See my comments below (rather long though):
>            
>            
>             > What do you use them for, at the moment?
>            
>             Used for Voice Recognition - tried HAL2000 and
HomeVoice. Both got
>             serious limitations in the way I want to use it
though. I've been
>             talking to Dan Hoenhen (ACE) about him developing an
ACE VR module
>             which could potentially be much more flexible than
HAL or HomeVoice.
>            
>             Also will use as additional voice/noise tracking as
part of Comfort
>             alarm system - recording when alarm activated. Got a
lot to do
>             before that though.
>            
>             > Do you have one in each room, or maybe two in
larger rooms like
>             lounge?
>            
>             only one in each room (well 7 so far). Although some
of my rooms are
>             fairly large, one mic picks up voice OK (depending
on background
>             noise). Interesting listening to conversations - not
that I'd do
>             that of course!
>            
>             > Which cable did you use? Someone said that it's
very important to
>             put good
>             > quality microphone cable. Where did you buy it?
>            
>             I agree - mic cable is very different to other types
of cable. I
>             used an Adastra Z323 cable - 2 cores with overall
screen.
>             recommended for 'installed' sound applications. Got
it from  West
>             London Elec - Mark - 0208 9922155. £35.25 inc VAT
per 100m drum.
>            
>            
>             > And what's your longest run from mic to mixer?
>            
>             About 20-30m I guess. Mic cable can run much longer
distances
>             though. I've used it on productions in excess of 60m
>            
>             > I am sorry for so many questions, but there are
only few people
>             with
>             > microphones on this group, so you are very
valuable source of
>             information.
>             > It seems that the most important thing is placing
them.
>             > Where did you place yours?
>            
>             On the wall at light switch height. Although the
guys at Shure are
>             very adamant about not ceiling mounting, I did try
taping a mic at
>             various points around the room and the difference
was normally quite
>             small. Best to site it towards where you will speak.
I suggest you
>             try it like this before running cable.
>            
>             > At the begining, I'll have my microphone in the
lounge only.
>             Therefore, I'll
>             > not use mixer yet (have to save money for it
first). That's where
>             it will be
>             > mostly used for giving commands for controlling
devices. My lounge
>             is
>             > 6.5mx3.8m. Sofa is opposite to the TV and that's
where, usually
>             I'll be
>             > giving commands from.
>             > But it's not simple for me to bring microphone
close to the sofa.
>             How did
>             > you place yours?
>             > How does it behave when TV is playing? Is it
capable of
>             distinguishing your
>             > voice from TV voice, or do you have to yell?
>            
>             You need to set your expectations as to what to
expect from 'open
>             air voice recognition'. The results will range from
good to very
>             poor (it's very frustrating when you have to repeat
yourself many
>             times!). VR technology (at least in open air) is
still limited. If
>             you've got a TV on (depending on volume) the results
will vary a
>             lot. After all, how could the software distinguish
between someone
>             talking on the TV and your voice?
>            
>             I've been thinking about noise cancelling technology
to help with
>             this - maybe feeding the output of the TV/Stereo
into a circuit with
>             the mic signal and cancelling out the TV/Stereo
frequencies. I
>             suspect it'd be quite difficult though as the signal
transmitted
>             from the TV speaker will sound very different to
the 'clean' line-
>             out signal. Any thoughts anyone?
>            
>             > You have that intelligent mixer and it detects
which microphones is
>             > receiving sound an makes it active. If TV or music
is playing in
>             the lounge,
>             > will that lock the mixer to microphone in the
lounge, so it will
>             not listen
>             > in other rooms?
>            
>             Yes it can lock it out. The mixer has input
balancing controls for
>             each input and an overall master control. You set
these controls
>             depending on the ambient levels in each room so that
it switches
>             correctly. This of course doesn't account for when
someone switches
>             on loud TV or music in the kitchen and you're trying
to talk to your
>             PC in the lounge. That's why I went for the Shure
mixer with it's
>             logic control - using outputs from HV or other HA
hardware, you can
>             manually select which mic to 'lock on' (or you could
wire up a very
>             simple override switch - uses 5V logic). You can
also detect which
>             mic is active - which I will use to eventually feed
back PC voice to
>             only the room giving commands.
>            
>             I went for all this as I'm interested in the
technology. I think it
>             still has a long way to go to get to the 'Startrek
Voyager' stage!
>            
>             > Cheers,
>             > Nik
>             >
>             >
>             >   -----Original Message-----
>             >   From: psghome2002 [mailto:psghome@h...]
>             >   Sent: 13 July 2002 19:12
>             >   To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx>             >   Subject: [ukha_d] Re: placing microphones...
>             >
>             >
>             >   Round 2...
>             >
>             >   I also put in mics in most rooms for voice
recognition. I did a
>             LOT
>             >   of research and eventually put in Crown PZM11
wall mics. They're
>             >   fairly inobtrusive and based on the US 'J Box'
size format (you
>             can
>             >   use a J Box or just cut a hole in the wall and
use rawl plugs for
>             >   the screw fixing - I did both).
>             >
>             >   The mic quality is great - it's a pressure zone
mic and designed
>             to
>             >   pick up voice frequencies (has a bit of bass
roll-off to cut HVAC
>             >   noises etc). I fed these via standard mic cable
(very important
>             to
>             >   use good quality cable) which is screened
(doesn't cost a great
>             deal
>             >   either) into a Shure SCM810 intelligent mixer.
This mixer
>             supplies
>             >   +48V phantom power to the mics. It automatically
senses which mic
>             >   has the loudest input and switches to that
source. Also has a
>             logic
>             >   input so you can do some clever stuff linked to
HomeVision etc.
>             >
>             >   Shure web site (www.shure.com)
>             >   Crown web site (www.crownaudio.com)
>             >
>             >   Shure has a good document on why you SHOULD NOT
place mics on the
>             >   ceiling:
>             >
>             >   http://www.shure.com/support/technotes/app-
ceiling.html
>             >
>             >   Mics will pick up all noise in the room, so
depends on what you
>             want
>             >   to do with it.
>             >
>             >   I'm planning to try and create a whole-house
hands-free telephone
>             >   system. Don't know how successful it'll be
though.
>             >
>             >   I put a couple of pics on the Yahoo group Photos
area - mic and
>             >   keypad for audio system - Under subject 'Pauls
mics'
>             >
>             >   Let me know if you want more info.
>             >
>             >   Paul.
>             >
>             >
>             >
>             >   --- In ukha_d@y..., "Nikola Kasic" <nikola@k...>
wrote:
>             >   > Along with speakers, I plan to put microphones
in each room as
>             >   well.
>             >   > My main question is: what kind of cable I
should put in and
>             what's
>             >   the
>             >   > longest run I can use before degrading signal?
>             >   > Also, where should I place microphones,
relative to the
>             speakers,
>             >   in order
>             >   > to avoid feedback and echoing?
>             >   > If speaker is close to the microphone and
music is coming out
>             of
>             >   it, will I
>             >   > have to yell in order to be heard by
microphone?
>             >   > I know that there are very few people with
installed
>             microphones
>             >   in this
>             >   > group. Can they come forward and tell me
what's their
>             experience,
>             >   which
>             >   > cables they used and where did they place
microphones.
>             >   > Cheers,
>             >   > Nik
>             >
>             >
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