RE: C-BUS vs. EIB

["Hawes,Timothy Edward (GEG)" <haweste@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Neil,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Neil Ball  Sent: 12 March 2004 10:40
>
> Sorry if the post is getting a bit long winded, but comments
> added at the
> end.
>
> Hawes,Timothy Edward (GEG) wrote:
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Neil Ball  Sent: 11 March 2004 16:11
> >>
> >>    <BIG SNIP>
>
> Hi Tim
>
> With regard to ABB I was pointing out that products using the
> EIB protocol
> are available from a number of manufacturers and that these may use
> additional proprietary instructions/extensions on top of the
> basic protocol.
> They still retain their EIB badging, but to fully utilise the advanced
> features on a given product range requires using a
> single-vendor system
> approach. This can also mean that the software tools from
> that manufacturer
> have to be used to commission these systems. Whether these
> are more freely
> available from other manufacturers simply depends on the
> commercial view
> taken by that manufacturer. I've not used EIB before but base
> this opinion
> on other "open" protocols such as Lon. The end result though
> is just like
> you said - no DIY :-(

OK, I see the point you were making. Interesting concept though, trying to
source EIB software from another vendor.

> I do take your point on the HVAC strategies, and that the required
> complexity really depends on where the system is aimed. The
> majority of end
> users would benefit from simple boiler control and zoning
> that could be
> centrally accessed and managed centrally and/or remotely. But
> this does miss
> the higher end of the market where comfort cooling/air conditioning is
> becoming more common and larger properties can have multiple
> boiler systems
> etc. In fact many of these properties I have seen can have
> more complex
> services than the average commercial building! There is a
> need here for much
> more sophisticated control and management without having to resort to
> commercial/industrial solutions in my opinion.

Yeah, when I was typing my response I had a niggle in the back of my mind
about high-end residential. I couldn't decide though whether residential or
commercial would have the more complex system so decided not to mention it
:-)

> This is where
> I see Siemens
> trying to capture both the volume market and a share of this
> higher end with
> their offering.
>
> With regard to the integrator route for commissioning, I
> suppose you have to
> look at any manufacturers issues with support and perception
> about quality
> of product. A poor implementation is often down to the poor design and
> commissioning rather than the product itself. The majority
> (i.e. those end
> users with no technical ability) have enough worries about
> the technology
> going wrong, and stories of badly installed equipment
> reflects directly on
> the manufacturer rather than the integrator in their eyes.

Absolutely. Keeping it a closed shop will in theory keep the quality
reputation higher, and keep the image as one of a premium brand.

> The approved
> integrator route and restricted access to engineering tools
> helps to protect
> the integrity of the solution but at the same time denies us
> the ability to
> tinker for ourselves.

I'd presume with an installer system that you'd be able to change setpoints
etc yourself, but if you wanted to add garden irrigation for eg, you'd have
to get them back to program that bit :-(

> That may change in time as the market grows and
> manufacturers recognise that there are technical users that
> may well have
> greater skills than the official integrators!

No doubt !

> I fully agree with you regarding the skills & ingenuity of
> the group when it
> comes to utilising all manner of devices to create very slick control
> systems. I just hope some of these abilities rub off on me :-)
>
> Neil B.

Indeed - the make-up of of this group, by it's nature, is of those people
interested in automation and how best to apply it. I guess the best example
of this co-op development are the xAP & xPL protocols.

Cheers,

Tim.

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