Re: Real HA - central heating control by the radiator

[Lehane Kellett <lehane@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

ian.bird@xxxxxxx wrote:
>> I have my doubts, for a domestic install anyway, whether full
>> proportional on a single rad is worth the
>> =A340-50 quid a go extra. For DHW mixing, definitely.
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> Works for me. I am sure the saved money will be appreciated.
>
>=20=20=20
>> I'd go with a central control and drop 4 core to the rads. Only
one good
>> PSU needed then.
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> Yep, good plan
>
>=20=20=20
>> I don't think the rad temperature is worth the effort
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> My main thought here is not cooling cycles etc. but one simply of
detecti=
ng
> when a valve actuator fails. If the radiator is hot when it shouldn't
be =
or
> vica versa then wave the alarm flag. Hopefully this would happen
before t=
he
> wife starts beating me ;-)
>
>=20=20=20
Well, I guess a good beating is one response to a failed HA install :-o

With enough smarts you should be able to tell if the room isn't warming=20
within
a few minutes and is off the slope - could be someone left the windows open
though - you could trip a warning alarm in any event since there isn't much
point in trying to warm half of England.

If none of the rooms are warming then you've probably no boiler output.
It is worth one sensor on the CH flow pipe somewhere for that.
>> With a new build I've had the luxury of bringing all the upstairs
>> rads(9) back to two manifolds
>> and the actuators are on those (Danfoss). JG UFH with 24V
actuators
>> downstairs.
>> They are controlled by an 2 xAP Netiom and DIN relays- not sure
I'd go
>> to the effort of a PCB.
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> Nice luxury. I don't have this one to be sure.
>
> I do however have an 8 way relay board already built and tested so
part w=
ay
> there. I even have a serial 8 way xAP enabled switch for said relay
board=
.
> All I am short of is the temperature sensing stuff, wiring and
associated
> mechanical bits and my magic central controller and touch screen
slaves.
>
> Hmmm, closer than I thought
>
>=20=20=20
TOM10 and some DS18B20's - gives 10 sensors. Or the USB attached=20
one-wire interface.
You could use xAP Floorplan scripting to get started too.

Even closer now!

Lehane

> Ian
>
>
>
>
>                                                                       
  =
=
=20
>                       Lehane Kellett                                  
  =
=
=20
>                       <lehane@xxxxxxx        To:      
ukha_d@yahoogrou=
ps.com                                                      =
=20
>                       emon.co.uk>              cc:       (bcc: Ian
Bird/C=
V/Novartis)                                                 =
=20
>                       Sent by:                 Subject:  Re: [ukha_d]
Rea=
l HA - central heating control by the radiator              =
=20
>                       ukha_d@yahoogroup                               
  =
=
=20
>                       s.com                                           
  =
=
=20
>                                                                       
  =
=
=20
>                                                                       
  =
=
=20
>                       28/03/2006 17:06                                
  =
=
=20
>                       Please respond to                               
  =
=
=20
>                       ukha_d                                          
  =
=
=20
>                                                                       
  =
=
=20
>                                                                       
  =
=
=20
>
>
>
>
> ian.bird@xxxxxxx wrote:
>=20=20=20
>> Hi David
>>
>> I was thinking about this and I liked Kevin's suggestion of just
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> switching
>=20=20=20
>> the 10v feed on or off giving me effectively the same as the on
off unit=
.
>> As you say though this opens up potential for future expansion.
>>
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> The 10V units are significantly more expensive than on/off and much
more
> difficult to get hold of, even
> the 24V in the UK seem to be disappearing. Oventrop are one company to
tr=
y.
>
> I have my doubts, for a domestic install anyway, whether full
> proportional on a single rad is worth the
> =A340-50 quid a go extra. For DHW mixing, definitely.
>=20=20=20
>> >From my point of view I have to build something that will work
by next
>> winter which is not a whole lot of time away taking into account
having
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> to
>=20=20=20
>> go to work too.
>>
>> My initial thoughts are:
>> 1) Local power supply to power the unit and the valve (no idea how
much
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> 24
>=20=20=20
>> volt supplies are?). May go with POE and a 24volt network so 2
times Cat=
5
>> to each zone.
>>
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> Excellent 24V 10A supplies are around - check ebay. Siemens, Lambda,
> Invensys, etc. All DIN rail
> mount for industrial logic controller use.
>
> I'd go with a central control and drop 4 core to the rads. Only one
good
> PSU needed then.
>=20=20=20
>> 2) Ethernet connected local units to switch the valve. Will also
take a
>> minimum of two temperature readings. One would be for the room
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> temperature
>=20=20=20
>> in the chosen location and the other would be the radiator
temperature.
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> In
>=20=20=20
>> reality there would probably be the ability to have more room temp
units=
.
>>
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> I don't think the rad temperature is worth the effort - if you know
how
> long ago you switched
> it off and the current room and outside temperatures that's going to
be
> enough - unless you
> start tracking doors opening and people movement too! Each room will
> have a different
> cooling/heating slope.
>=20=20=20
>> 3) Mark 1 units would only switch on and off
>> 4) Communication protocol is open but I would think xAP would be a
good
>> choice. This would also fit in with some graphic displays I am
designing=
.
>> 5) Initially I would probably use HomeVision to control the
radiators (i=
t
>> does the heating now) but I would aim to add additional brains in
a home
>> made control unit. Ultimately I would not only want radiator by
radiator
>> control but also control from every room in the house with
customisable
>> abilities. For example the kids rooms would only be able to
control that
>> room whereas the main bedroom would not have any limits. I plan
password
>> protection on these too so no kids sneaking into mum and dads room
for
>> dastardly deeds ;-).There would also need to be a master control
so the
>> kids don't just set it on all the time. Lots of permutations to
confuse
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> me
>=20=20=20
>> horribly. Of course it would be nice to record what was on when
and wher=
e
>> it was activated from which I would include in my home made
control unit=
.
>> This could then be queried from a PC and printed or whatever.
>>
>> Boiler cycling would be controlled in software somehow. Long way
away
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> from
>=20=20=20
>> that though.
>>
>> The beauty of this approach is I can phase the system in as time
allows
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> and
>=20=20=20
>> debug on route. I would also try and make the Ethernet part of the
unit
>> separate from the switching part as this will keep costs down when
I
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> change
>=20=20=20
>> the spec. Just have a plug and socket type of connector. Also,
since siz=
e
>> is not a big issue I can design for 'PCB comfort' rather than for
the
>> smallest size as I have been doing of late. Roll on that PCB
autorouter
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> ;-)
>=20=20=20
>> I would guess 8 units would be my ideal. This would give me one
spare an=
d
>> leave one Radiator without a valve so heat can always be
dissipated in
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> the
>=20=20=20
>> case of something going wrong.
>>
>>
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> With a new build I've had the luxury of bringing all the upstairs
> rads(9) back to two manifolds
> and the actuators are on those (Danfoss). JG UFH with 24V actuators
> downstairs.
> They are controlled by an 2 xAP Netiom and DIN relays- not sure I'd go
> to the effort of a PCB.
>
> Lehane
>
>=20=20=20
>> Ian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>=20=20=20=20=20
>
>=20=20=20
>>                       "David Gumbrell"
>>=20=20=20=20=20
>
>=20=20=20
>>                       <david.gumbrell@g        To:
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> ukha_d@xxxxxxx
>
>=20=20=20
>>                       mail.com>                cc:       (bcc:
Ian
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> Bird/CV/Novartis)
>=20=20=20
>>                       Sent by:                 Subject:  Re:
[ukha_d]
>>=20=20=20=20=20
> Real HA - central heating control by the radiator
>=20=20=20
>>                       ukha_d@yahoogroup
>>=20=20=20=20=20
>
>=20=20=20
>>                       s.com
>>=20=20=20=20=20
>
>=20=20=20
>
>=20=20=20
>
>=20=20=20
>>                       28/03/2006 01:47
>>=20=20=20=20=20
>
>=20=20=20
>>                       Please respond to
>>=20=20=20=20=20
>
>=20=20=20
>>                       ukha_d
>>=20=20=20=20=20
>
>=20=20=20
>
>=20=20=20
>
>=20=20=20
>>
>>
>> Hi Kevin,
>>
>> If you go for a bulk buy, I'd be interested in 6-7 of the
proportional
>> ones.
>>
>> Ian: I think proportional will give you much greater scope for
decent
>> control schemes, although at a cost, obviously. I suspect On/Off
is
>> going to create more boiler cycling.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> On 3/27/06, Kevin Hawkins <lists@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>=20=20=20=20=20
>>> ian.bird@xxxxxxx wrote:
>>>
>>>=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
>>>> Hi Kevin
>>>>
>>>> Where did you get the price from? Also any idea how much
the other
>>>>
>>>>=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
>> parts
>>
>>=20=20=20=20=20
>>>> needed are? I will need 7 at the end of the day plus maybe
a spare
>>>>
>>>>=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
>> head.
>>
>>=20=20=20=20=20
>>> That was just a Google using the part number - it pulled up a
PDF
>>>
>>>=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
>> pricelist
>>
>>=20=20=20=20=20
>>> Danfoss Gesmbh Presiliste April 2005 Warmetechnik 
www.danfoss.at
>>>
>>>=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
>>>> A 0 to 10 volt control voltage doesn't sound too hard
although for hom=
e
>>>>
>>>>=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
>> use
>>
>>=20=20=20=20=20
>>>> I suspect the on/off ones would be just fine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
>>> I'd prefer the proportional ones I think - at worst case I can
just
>>> drive them with ONOFF 10V I guess if that all goes pear
shaped.
>>>
>>> Kevin
>>>
>>>=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>=20=20=20=20=20
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>=20=20
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>=20=20
>
>
>
>
>
>=20=20=20



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]