RE: Re: New Build

["Nigel Giddings" <nigel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

James,



Have you looked at Comfort from Cytech with their C-Bus UCM. I use
comfort to provide all the logic in my C-Bus system. It worked out
around the price of the C-Bus 'Pascal?' device with the added benefits
that the Comfort system brings...



I like the idea of 'non-computer' based devices for 'mission critical'
stuff like turning lights on. I use the pjcComfort plugin for Homeseer
to provide more advanced, non-mission critical logic using a PC...



HTH



Nigel



-----Original Message-----
From: ukha_d@xxxxxxx [mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of James - SJ Computers
Sent: 31 March 2009 15:20
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: New Build



Thanks for all the advice. I have been playing around with Cbus for a
while
now. Spent a good 3 or 4 days playing with the Toolkit, getting to know
how
all the programming works and I am fairly happy with it. C-Gate and
C-Lution
offer 3rd party extensions and logic functions, has anyone got more
experience of these?

Update on Cat5:

24 Data Points

1 Fridge

1 Dishwasher

1 Washer

1 Drier

24 TV points (12 points, 2 outlets at each)

28 Audio Points

4 Games Console

12 Coax to each TV point

Total: 84 Cat5e and 12 Coax

If budget allows, I would like to double wire everything, to leave room
of
anything unexpected. Can anyone think of anything I have missed?

From: ukha_d@xxxxxxx <mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx
<mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>
] On
Behalf Of
yetanotherdonsfan
Sent: 31 March 2009 14:10
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx <mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [ukha_d] Re: New Build

This is BRILLIANT advise and I can completely agree with everything
said.

Beware most new products are in Beta and don't work or worse behave
erratically ....

Depending on the depth/breadth of requirements you might budget 10-15
man-days to become 'reasonably' familiar with CBus from scratch? (I hope
the
CBus courses are better now than the two I went on.)

Don't make any assumptions about anything. What you expect to be logical
/
common sense won't be in a lot of cases.

As touched on that first job may well lose you money. By the 4th or 5th
you
will probably be starting to make some headway.

Do a business plan and show losses for a few months e.g create a worst
case.

Although nobody would want to admit it, I'm sure there are an awful lot
of
installers who only get by.

Nigel

--- In ukha_d@xxxxxxx <mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>
, "Nick
Tyson - The Edge" <nick@...> wrote:
>
> Hi James,
>
>
>
> After over 20 years in the business, a few tips from the chalk face.
(may
be
> read to Baz Luhrmann's "Sunscreen"
>
>
>
> If you're expecting a steep and expensive learning curve you are not
likely
> to be disappointed.
>
>
>
> If it's a one off project, think very carefully about whether you want
to/
> can afford to do it.
>
>
>
> The first one (at least) will cost you a lot more money and take a lot
more
> time than you are probably expecting. If you're going to look for more
of
> this kind of work, put the component parts together and make it work
before
> you consider selling it to a client - this will be doing both you and
your
> client a big favour - using clients as guinea pigs will be frustrating
and
> embarrassing for you. And however nice the client may seem now, they
will
> not appreciate all the "bungling" that is likely to go on
because
you're
> learning on the job.
>
>
>
> Don't assume your client appreciates you being in his house at 9.30pm
trying
> to get things to work - you think you're doing him a favour, he just
doesn't
> want you there.
>
>
>
> Once you have a system that works, sell as many as you can without
changing
> it. Although our industry is sometimes referred to as custom
installation,
> avoid customising the system as much as you can - and if you have to
make
> sure you get paid properly for it, based on how long it actually takes
(not
> how long you think it might take).
>
>
>
> Assume everything will take much longer than you expect.
>
>
>
> Provide a user manual detailing exactly how the system works - if
you've
> learned as much as you need to about the products you will be using
and
how
> they will integrate, you should be able to write this before you even
start
> the job.
>
>
>
> There are many ways of doing things, some of which are better than
others
> and none of which are perfect.
>
>
>
> There are products that work well alone but don't integrate too well
and
> then there are ones which integrate well but don't do the job they
should
do
> very well.
>
>
>
> Make sure you understand EXACTLY what the client expects, then try and
make
> sure they understand exactly what you're going to deliver, and if the
two
> vary in any way make sure they understand how. Appreciate that the
client
> has a vision in their head of how the system will work and that this
is
> unlikely to coincide with your vision (and that both visions may be
some
way
> from the reality).
>
>
>
> Don't expect products to work. If you're not 100% sure that something
you're
> suggesting will work, assume it won't (you will usually be correct)
>
>
>
> Don't expect new models to necessarily be better then previous ones -
> sometimes they're just cheaper.
>
>
>
> The more a product does the more things there are not to work properly
or
to
> go wrong.
>
>
>
> Think very carefully about programming, how every page needs to be
laid
out
> and link to other pages (and expect that even after you've thought it
> through there will still be issues to deal with)
>
>
>
> Don't assume that the client understands what the system will do and
how
it
> will work - be as specific about the things you're not doing as you
are
> about the things you're doing.
>
> Ideally, let the client play with a demonstration system prior to
making a
> decision, sometimes it can be something as basic as how a remote
control
> works that puts them off (or turns them on). Sometimes it can be
something
> really simple that makes a client hate their system. He likes
touch-screen
> controls, she can only work a remote with buttons. You will have a
much
> easier life if you find this out before rather than after the project.
>
>
>
> Expect changes, and make sure you document and cost them properly. Do
not
> deal with changes for free, this will just give back any money you
might
> have been going to make. Document all changes, cost them realistically
> (including all associated costs - don't forget that plans may need to
be
> amended, etc), and get the client to agree. If you make it clear
upfront
how
> you will deal with changes there should be no problems. If you don't
> document changes as you go along, assume you will not be getting paid
for
> them (again you will usually not be disappointed).
>
>
>
> Do not expect your client to pay you on time. Think carefully about
when
you
> require payment, remember it is up to you to make the rules. If you
can
> afford to act as a bank for your client expect to get into the kind of
> trouble that most banks have recently found themselves in. It is
perfectly
> acceptable to expect a client to pay for stages, or equipment, in
advance.
> One of you will be exposed to a certain element of risk at some point,
from
> your point of view it is better if that is the client rather than you.
Most
> clients will understand this - when they go and order a fridge from
Comet,
> they expect to pay for it before they leave the store regardless of it
not
> being delivered for two weeks.
>
>
>
> The two things that will keep you awake at night are not being able to
make
> things work and lack of money. You have a reasonable amount of control
over
> both these things at this stage.
>
>
>
> Keep your drawings up to date, they will come in handy at some point
in
the
> future.
>
>
>
> Under promise (but not too much) and over deliver - a happy client at
the
> end of the project is your best salesperson (and much cheaper than
> advertising).
>
>
>
> Enjoy the work, but remember it's not all glamour, it's the client
that
gets
> the benefit of all the fun stuff not you.
>
>
>
> After 20 years in the business we're still learning on a daily basis.
Expect
> the same.
>
>
>
> Oh and don't forget the sunscreen.
>
>
>
> Good Luck,
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: ukha_d@xxxxxxx <mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx
<mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>
] On Behalf
Of
> James - SJ Computers
> Sent: 30 March 2009 19:52
> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx <mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [ukha_d] New Build
>
>
>
> Thanks all,
>
> The 24 original CAT5 points where for data only. I was expecting to
run a
> lot more, leaving it either un-terminated or NC at Node 0 until
needed.
>
> Has anyone used Harmony from Domia for linking all their systems
together?
> At the moment it is between Harmony and Comfort, unless anyone has a
third
> option? The main reason for automation is to control everything from
one
> place, right? My client wants to be able to control Lighting, AV,
> Curtains/Blind, HVAC etc from one remote. Can this be done with Sonos,
or
> does it have to be controlled by it's own remote?
>
> The house is three stories therefore there is not room to run cables
through
> the loft space, however this shouldn't be an issue, as this is a new
build.
> Cabling isn't my main concern, it is the fact of how to integrate
everything
> together that I am having difficulty with.
>
> Regards
>
> James
>
> SJ Computers
>
> From: ukha_d@yahoogroups. <mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>
com
> [mailto:ukha_d@yahoogroups. <mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>
com] On
Behalf
> Of
> Andrew Millne
> Sent: 30 March 2009 18:41
> To: ukha_d@yahoogroups. <mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>
com
> Subject: Re: [ukha_d] New Build
>
> I'd add a few more CAT5 outlets if I were you especially in the living
room.
> If you want to send HD anywhere you've used up two of your CAT5's
straight
> away.
>
> 2009/3/30 James - SJ Computers <james@sj-computers.
> <mailto:james%40sj-computers.com>
com
> <mailto:james%40sj-computers.com>
>
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > We are just starting to price an Automation System for a new 5
bed
house.
> I
> > have currently included 24 CAT5 outlets (2 per bed, 2 Living, 2
Kitchen,
4
> > TV/Study, 4 Study, 2 Dining). We will be installing 48 way switch
to
leave
> > room for IP cameras etc. Are there any other ports that I should
consider?
> > More in the kitchen (System X)? Also, is a managed switch
overkill
for a
> > home?
> >
> > On the Automation front it looks like we will be using Cbus,
Crestron or
> > Control4. Does anyone have any suggestions on which is best? My
main
query
> > with Cbus is how does it interface with other systems?
> > (Security/AV/HVAC/etc)
> >
> > Audio: Sonos or Cbus?
> >
> > Any tips will be gratefully received
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > James
> >
> > SJ Computers
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> Andrew Millne
> ---------------------------------
> http://www.millne.
<http://www.millne.com/ <http://www.millne.com/>
>
com/
> Twitter - http://twitter.
<http://twitter.com/AndyMillne
<http://twitter.com/AndyMillne>
> com/AndyMillne
>
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>
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>
>
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