Nik,

Most decent speakers have a protection circuit built in to prevent exactly that.

The reason I used a DAV in the bedroom was that it is very small and unobtrusive as are the speakers, great sound on DVD not so hot on plain old stereo though L

-----Original Message-----
From: Nikola Kasic [mailto:nikola@xxxxxxx]
Sent: 29 March 2002 14:36
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Amplifying rear speakers separatly

I cannot put any standard, big amp in bedroom. It has to be small and compact, so it can be hidden. I saw regarding power rating all kinds of ratings, so I got your point. I'll follow your advice and focus more on quality, but I gave you power rating as an idea, so you don't suggest me some amplifier which is too powerful and can burn the speakers. E.g. if something goes wrong with programing and puts volume to max, I want speakers still to survive.

Cheers,

Nik

-----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth Watt [mailto:kennwatt@xxxxxxx]
Sent: 28 March 2002 08:59
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Amplifying rear speakers separatly

Nik,

IMO, and remember it is only and opinion, the rating of an amp compared to the rating of a speaker is a comparison that is simply not worth making for domestic use the only thing I pay any attention to is the impedance of the speakers compared to the amp as this is all that should matter. The RMS output or wattage rating of a domestic amp is normally a bit of a non-starter as far as I am concerned, I have heard a 30W amp sound better cleaner and louder than a 100W amp and this happens simply as what you get using this rule of thumb is a totally non-linear dB scale to try and judge sound levels and some amps are better than others, not all amps are the same and they do not play on a level playing field. For some strange reason the manufacturers seem to use the wattage output of an amp as a “mine’s bigger than yours” type of thing, when in actual listening it is the quality of the amp that matters not the drive it gives, again this is an opinion. But then if you want to drive huge Jamo speakers and pump out dance or house all night at breach of the peace volumes…

If you can drive a line level signal to the internal amp in the speakers then you would be listening to the input as interpreted by the amp internally and then delivered to the speakers and, to most people’s ears, the input signal would not make a whole hill of beans worth of difference to the output at the speakers. It will make some difference but I’m guessing that for a bedroom system that the ultimate in the aural experience is not what you’re after, just a decent clean sound.

I probably got some of this wrong, but this is my own experience and I don’t give a fig really outside of my AV room about anything other than achieving a decent background sound but in the bedroom I use a DAV-S300 Sony DVD system which does fine for what I want, Phil’s the expert on this stuff so check with him. Personally I stick to my old adage with Hi-Fi, listen to it and if it suits you, get it!

HTH

K.

Thanks Mark,

Can you please help me with this, just to finish the thread:

I want to play music (radio/CD/MP3 whatever) from my amplifier in bedroom. I have no speaker cables installed, and it'will not be easily possible to install them, the only cable I have is CAT6 network. I already found that it's not possible to use CAT6 as speaker cables (it is, but results will be crap), so my only option is to use KAT5 and transfer line level signal over CAT6 into bedroom. However, I don't have space in bedroom to put separate "normal" amp, so I plan to find small, compact amplifier and hide it somewhere, and install NXT Wharfdale Loudpanels and put them on the wall. Subwoofer that comes with them, and small amp, I plan to hide under the bed.

Because, amplifier will be hidden, and volume control (if it has it) inaccessible, I would like to control the volume >from for that, if I don't want to walk to living room.

Do you know where I can find such small amp, which can drive Loudpanels? Just checked on Richer Sounds, and they don't have them on web site anymore, but I'll find them somewhere. What power rating I should look for? Loudpanels are rated as 30W per speaker + 25W subwoofer.

It seems that you're an expert on this topic (according to the gear you have installed :-)).

Cheers,

Nik

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Harrison [mailto:Mark.Harrison@xxxxxxx]
Sent: 27 March 2002 11:01
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Amplifying rear speakers separatly

Nik,

Everything else you said is perfectly correct.

Regards,

Mark Harrison
Head of Systems, eKingfisher

-----Original Message-----
From: Nikola Kasic [mailto:nikola@xxxxxxx]
Sent: 27 March 200210:31
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Amplifying rear speakers separatly

But, is the rest that I said O.K. or I'm talking b...cks.
Nik

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Harrison [mailto:Mark.Harrison@xxxxxxx]
Sent: 26 March 200217:41
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Amplifying rear speakers separatly

Nikola,

If you have a volume control, you have variable gain.

If you don't have a volume control, you have fixed gain.

Mark Harrison
Head of Systems, eKingfisher

-----Original Message-----
From: Nikola Kasic [mailto:nikola@xxxxxxx]
Sent: 26 March 200217:04
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Amplifying rear speakers separatly

I think that trick is then in amplifiers:
You have 3 amplifiers: 2 for front and 1 for rear speakers.
Integrated amp on front drives treble speakers
Power amp drives basses on front
Pioneer drives rear speakers

I asume that we can simplify this to having two amps, one for front, one
for rear speakers. But it seems that the trick is in amplifiers:

A power amp has FIXED GAIN, rather than a variable gain, so you need
something else to control the volume, otherwise it would always be at
max.

What does this mean? How can I know if amplifier has fixed or variable
gain?
E.g. I have Sony STR DB 1070 amp, which has 5.1 channel outs and 5.1
pre-amp outs. I asume that pre-amp ones are interesting ones. Then I
should connect pre-amp outs for rear speakers into line in of some small
stereo amplifier.
I plan to find some small, compact, stereo amplifier with volume control
only, which can be easily hidden, and connect Sony pre-amp out ->KAT5->
small amp Line in.
Is that O.K.
Then, I plan to adjust the level of rear amp with sound level meter at
some reference level and from then on, not to touch it anymore.
When I raise or lower the volume on the main amp (Sony), the volume
should change on all speakers.
Is my theory O.K.?
Nik

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Harrison [mailto:Mark.Harrison@xxxxxxx]
Sent: 26 March 200215:51
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Amplifying rear speakers separatly

Git!

OK, here goes, how I do DVD playback:

ALL SIGNALS FROM HERE GO AS DIGITAL STREAMS, EITHER PCM OR DOLBY DIGITAL
DEPENDING ON THE SOURCE MATERIAL

- The source is a Pioneer DVD player (second black box from the bottom
on the right-hand stack)

The audio goes, via SP/DIF (the single reddy-pink cable), down onto the
floor, then into the source switch

- The source switch is aMeridian562V, (middle black box, narrower
width, on the left-hand stack)
--- It's worth noting that the other sources, such as the DDAR (top
black box, narrowest width, on the left-hand stack) that go into the
562V as analogue get CONVERTED into DIGITAL at this point... All the DSP
stuff happens entirely in the digital domain.

Assuming that the selected source is "DVD", this goes, via (a virtually
impossible to see) SP/DIF cable into the processor

- The processor is a Meridian 561 (lower black box, narrower width, on
the left-hand stack)

WHILE THE PROCESSOR IS CAPABLE OF OUTPUTTING UP TO 8 CHANNELS OF AUDIO,
IN EITHER ANALOGUE OR DIGITAL FORMAT, AT PRESENT I ONLY USE 4 CHANNELS,
AND OUTPUT THEM ALL AS ANALOGUE AT LINE LEVEL

Front pair

The main stereo pair come out on a (virtually impossible to see) pair of
phono connectors into the integrated amp

- The integrated amp is a John Shearne Phase 2 (wider width, but thinner
depth top black box on the right-hand stack.)
--- the black speaker cables go out of this and drive the treble drivers
on the front speaker pair

The integrated amp also has a line-level passthrough on the
(purpley-pink) analogue pair to the power amp

- The power amp is a John Shearne Phase 2 (wider width, but thinner
depth second-to-top black box on the right-hand stack.)
--- The pinky speaker cables go out of this and drive the bass drivers
on the front speaker pair

Rear pair

The rear stereo pair come out on a (virtually impossible to see, but you
can see the red and white boots on the processor) anlogue pair, into a
KAT5 TX

- The KAT5 TX is almost out of shot, on the floor, but you can just see
a corner of it at the far right on the bottom edge of the picture, to
the right of the mains block

... this goes into a CAT5 socket in the wall, back to the patch panel,
where it's patched to a CAT5 socket at the other end of the room. This
goes into a KAT5 RX, which drives an old Integrated amplifier (Pioneer
A-400), which drives a the rear pair of speakers.

Volume controls

The logic in this is that the "changing the volume" circuitry (pre-amp)
is kept separate from the "amplifying lots" circuitry (power amp) to
avoid interference.

A power amp has FIXED GAIN, rather than a variable gain, so you need
something else to control the volume, otherwise it would always be at
max.

The pre-amp, which is the only volume control that ever gets touched, is
on the processor. The processor, as we've seen purely operates on a
DIGITAL input, and turns it into line-level, ANALOGUE outputs.

In practice, both the front and rear amplifiers actually have volume
controls, but these are just left "whacked up to about 75%", and the
volume adjustment is done on the processor.

Mark Harrison
Head of Systems, eKingfisher

-----Original Message-----
From: James Hoye [mailto:james.hoye@xxxxxxx]
Sent: 26 March 200215:07
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Amplifying rear speakers separatly

Ahh I see a man about to be initiated into the "real" audio club :-)

Go mark go mark go mark :-)

And feel free to refer to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_d/files/mharrison_avkit.jpg
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_d/files/mharrison_avkit.jpg>
< http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_d/files/mharrison_avkit.jpg
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_d/files/mharrison_avkit.jpg> >
< http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_d/files/mharrison_avkit.jpg
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_d/files/mharrison_avkit.jpg>
< http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_d/files/mharrison_avkit.jpg
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you
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James H

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RE: Amplifying rear speakers separatly